Interview with an Appraiser: Market Value Isn’t Just What a Buyer Is Willing to Pay (Part 1)

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About This Episode

There’s been a lot of tension between you and appraisers over the past two years. Home prices skyrocketed at an unprecedented pace, and appraisers have struggled to find comparable sales that justify what your buyers and sellers have agreed to. Making matters worse, there’s always been a bit of mystery surrounding how appraisers do their job. This week on The Walkthrough™, Jamie Owen, a veteran appraiser in Cleveland, helps us take the mystery out of appraisals. He’ll walk us step-by-step through the appraisal process, talk about how appraisers make price adjustments, and much more. This is part one of a two-part series.

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Links and Show Notes

• Aspen Appraisal Services – Jamie’s business website
• Cleveland Appraisal Blog – Jamie’s blog
• Home Value Stories – Jamie’s podcast
• Article: ANSI Square Footage Standards: What Agents and Appraisers Should Know
• Join our Facebook mastermind for The Walkthrough™ listeners
• HomeLight’s Agent Resource Center
• Follow and listen to The Walkthrough™: Apple Podcasts/iTunes | Spotify | YouTube

Full Transcript

(SPEAKER: Matt McGee, Host)

Matt: Here’s a common situation from the last couple years. Your newest listing goes under contract. It’s way, way above asking price. You wait for the appraisal to come in.

[sound effect: clock ticking]

You’re getting nervous. Your seller is nervous. Finally, the appraisal comes in and…

[sound effect: upset crowd]

Matt: Sound familiar? There’s been a lot of tension in the last couple years between agents and appraisers. You know the agent side of things. Maybe it would help to hear the appraiser side, too. That’s what we’re doing today: home values, comps, price adjustments, and a lot more. We’ve got a veteran appraiser with us to spill all the beans about his work. It’s interview with an appraiser. This is The Walkthrough™.

(INTRO MUSIC)

Matt: Hello. Hello. My name’s Matt McGee. Happy September to you. I hope the month is off to a good start. Welcome to The Walkthrough™. This is a weekly podcast. New episodes come out bright and early every Monday morning. Special welcome to any new listeners that we have with us. Our last two episodes of August, two of the most popular episodes we’ve ever done. So, I have a feeling we have a lot of new listeners. If that’s you, it is great to have you on board.

This is the show where you’ll learn what’s working right now from the best real estate agents and industry experts in the country. At HomeLight, we believe in real estate agents. We’re here to explore how great agents grow their business, stand out from the crowd, and become irreplaceable.

How many appraisers have you worked with in your real estate career? Ten, 50, maybe more than 100? I guess it depends on a few things like how big your market is, how long you’ve been licensed, how many transactions you do, of course. Here’s the real question, though. How well do you know, like really, really know an appraiser’s job?

The idea for this episode goes back to late 2021. As I was putting together plans for season three, I asked our Facebook listener group if they had any special requests, any topics or special guests that they would wanna hear on the show. Well, one listener suggested that we interview an appraiser, and others chimed in and seconded that idea. So, that’s one unique thing about this episode. It is your idea, not mine.

And here’s another unique thing, I have a co-host today. I figure if we’re gonna talk with an appraiser, we should have someone on the show who’s actually worked with an appraiser, right? Well, we just so happen to have an expert like that on The Walkthrough™ staff. Our producer, Lisa Johnson Smith, has been a licensed agent since 2004, and she still does some client work today. So, Lisa’s gonna co-host this two-part series with me. You’re gonna hear her voice throughout both episodes, and you can expect to hear her in future shows as well. So, Lisa, take it away.

Lisa: Well, as you mentioned earlier, Matt, our guest today is a veteran appraiser. Jamie Owen runs Aspen Appraisal Services out of Cleveland, Ohio. And since 1998, he’s done more than 8,000 residential real estate appraisals. And what’s near and dear to our hearts is this: Jamie’s actually been doing a podcast about home appraisals since 2019.

Well, this is part one of a two-part series with Jamie. And today, we’re gonna talk about what the last two years has been like for Jamie. How did he keep up with the rapid increases in home values? He’s also gonna give us an almost five-minute walkthrough of the appraisal process, from the moment he gets the job to when he submits that report.

And we’re gonna talk about what he looks for in comparable sales, how he makes time-based price adjustments, and how neighborhood elements can impact a home’s value. So, without further ado, let’s get started. Everything you ever wanted to know about residential appraisals. Here’s our conversation with Jamie Owen.

(BEGIN CONVERSATION)

Matt: We know that home values have gone way up the past couple years. We know how it has impacted real estate agents. How has it impacted you?

Jamie: It’s impacted us as far as appraising goes, just in volume, just sheer volume. And then the time it takes to really measure the market and the speed for which it’s changed. I think it’s taken all of us by surprise, or at least back in, you know, 2020, that home prices have shot up as quickly as they did. We’re just not used to seeing that kind of appreciation. So, it’s been busy, just it takes more time to analyze the market, make sure our work is supportable. So, that’s the biggest thing, and volume.

Matt: I think one of the things that we have heard from our real estate agent listeners a lot is that a lot of buyers have been willing to pay more for a house than, “What it’s worth,” right?

Jamie: Yes.

Matt: So, what happens in that situation on the appraisal side?

Jamie: Well, we’re appraising the market value, and so we have to have solid support for the way we develop our opinion of value. And a lot of times, it matches what people are willing to pay, but in this market, a lot of times people had to bring in cash to the table. You know, market value, contrary to popular belief, is not what two people are willing to, buy and sell a home for. There’s a lot more that goes into it than just that.

To illustrate that, I’ve had people call, like homeowners, and they wanna appeal their taxes. And they’ll tell me, you know, “Back in 2020, I overpaid for my home and I know that I did, but that’s the only way I could get the home. So, I overpaid for it, but I know it’s not really worth that.” And it’s like, well, you know, they’re admitting that, you know, price it’s not always just what’s somebody’s willing to buy. People are willing to spend more.

Matt: Has that changed? How did that change your job?

Jamie: It makes it a little more stressful. You know, we’re not target hitters. So, you know, but it’s always nice when our opinion of value is at least what the contract price is. But, sometimes it’s not. So, there’s a stress that we sometimes have, if our opinion of value is lower than the contract price, you know, because you know that somebody’s gonna be upset. Might be the agent, might be, the buyer or the seller.

Lisa: Jamie, what do you do in that instance? How do you handle that?

Jamie: Well, I just support my work to the best of my ability. That’s really all we can do. You know, we’re being hired to develop an opinion of value that’s based on facts, you know, data from the market. So, that’s how we handle it. We just make sure that we’re supporting our work in a solid manner.

Lisa: And that’s through using comps?

Jamie: Yeah, comparable sales? Yep. And then as I’m sure we’ll get into in a little bit, even in our adjustments, you know, that makes a big difference too, in this market. Home prices have shot up so fast. You know, a home that sold last month went under contract maybe a month before that. So, we have to measure the market in that change. That’s gotta be part of our appraisal process, is that market analysis and accounting for that.

Matt: In the end, you have to get to a number that’s defensible, right?

Jamie: Exactly. Yeah. So, our work is not to simply validate a contract price. Although, I think a lot of times, our appraisals are used that way. It’s a validation situation. But really for appraising, it’s much deeper than that. There is a long process we go through on every appraisal, and it takes some time to properly do them.

Matt: Let’s dive into that appraisal process, why don’t you just walk us through? So, the lender hires you to appraise 123 Main Street. What happens next?

Jamie: So, the first thing I’ll do is I’ll pull the zoning and look through the zoning. And I’ll look at the property that I’m getting ready to appraise. And then I’ll start pulling data. That’s the first thing, so of course, I’ll schedule the appointment. But before I even get to the property, I’m pulling single-family homes if it’s a single-family home that I’m appraising. Seeing what the market trends are for all the single-family homes in that market area, or maybe a specific neighborhood. So, I’m gonna measure that trend. And then I’m also gonna look at trends of homes that are competing with the subject property, the property we’re appraising. So, there’s several trends that we’re looking at.

And so, that’s really the first part of the appraisal, is the market analysis. You know, how much supply is there in the market? What’s the demand? How fast are homes selling for? How fast are they appreciating at? So, we’ll look at how sales prices are changing, price per square foot. We’re gonna look at listings, you know, because listings are future sales. So, we have to pay attention to what’s going on with the listings out there. That’s the first part of the process. And then we start collecting information on the home. You know, eventually, we go out. In most cases, we’ll look at the home, we’ll walk through, we’ll measure it. Of course now for Fannie Mae, we’re using ANSI standards. So, we’ll measure the home, take photos.

Lisa: Jamie just mentioned ANSI standards. Well, here’s a quick explainer in case that’s new to you. ANSI is a standard for measuring single-family homes. As of April 1st of this year, Fannie Mae began requiring appraisers to use that standard. What it does is it guides them on what counts as living space. In the end, what the appraiser reports might be different from what other sources list for the size of the home. And you can check out today’s show notes for a link to learn more about these ANSI standards. Now, let’s get back to the conversation. Jamie is walking us through his process for appraising a single-family home.

Jamie: And then when I get back to the office, that’s when there’s a lot more work that’s involved, the inspection is really the easy part. Because now you’ve got all the information collected on the property you’re appraising, and now we’ve gotta try to reconcile that with the market. So, we’re looking at comparable sales. Now, once we’ve seen the property, now we know what to look for for comparable sales, we’ll know what’s comparable. So, I’ll kind of narrow it down to a pool of homes that seem comparable, at least on paper.

And then I’ll start reading the MLS notes. I’ll look at the MLS photos of those comparable sales. I’ll call the listing agent and have a visit with them about the property. Because a lot of times, something may get missed in the MLS or you get a lot more information when you talk to the agent. So, I really like to try to visit with those listing agents. Usually, they’re more willing to give you a little bit more information in the property than, you know, you’re gonna read on a listing. So, once we narrow it down, we’ve got a handful of relatively comparable sales.

Then we start applying those adjustments that we derive from the market to those sales. And we end up with a range of adjusted sales prices of those comparable sales. And then we start to reconcile, you know, which of those properties is most comparable to the home we’re appraising? And, you know, there’s different ways that we can narrow things down, fine-tune them. I like to use a weighted average. So, you give most weight to the home that’s most comparable of the sales that you’re using. And so, that’s just for the sales comparison approach.

If it’s a newer home or new construction, we’re going to also complete the cost approach. And I will tell you, actually, I complete the cost approach on every appraisal anyway for the subject property because that’s how we measure depreciation. And that’s an important role in the appraisal process as well. So, that means we have to develop an opinion on the value of the land. We have to determine the replacement cost of the property we’re appraising. And then when we compare what it would cost to build versus what comparable sales are selling for less the land, now we’ve got a crude depreciation. And that’s an important factor that we can use for making adjustments. So, I do complete the cost approach on every appraisal, even if I don’t include it in the report.

And then there’s the income approach. So, if you’re appraising a property that’s an income property or a home being used as a rental property, we complete the income approach. And then you’ve gotta reconcile which approach is most applicable, which one’s most supportable, which one has the best data, and we’ve gotta reconcile that. So, that’s it in a nutshell. I don’t know if I covered it well, but…

Lisa: You covered it really thoroughly, but can we go back a little bit?

Jamie: Yes.

Lisa: So, you talked about the comps. How wide of an area are we talking? How wide do you search?

Jamie: Well, that’s such a great question. So, I start with the immediate neighborhood. You know, if you can find comparable sales that are in that neighborhood, you know, we have to define what that is. So, it’s different in different markets. But if we can find sales there, there’s no sense in going to another neighborhood, you know, if you’ve got sales that are right there and they’re really comparable. But sometimes we have to widen it out.

So, a lot of it depends on the density of the area that we’re appraising. You know, if we’re in a city with a high density, well, there’s probably a lot of sales that are nearby or relatively nearby, and you don’t have to go far– maybe even a few blocks, in some cases. If you’re in a suburban area, it may be a mile or two out. There are properties that I’ve appraised that are rural, and you’re driving 20, 30 miles just to get a picture because that’s the closest comparable sale.

So, it really depends on the market area. And it depends on the home, too. If it’s a really unique home, you’ve gotta go try to find another comparable sale that’s, similar or unique in and of itself. So, that’s a good question.

Matt: And how far back in time can you go?

Jamie: Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, they like to see six months or as far back as a year. And that’s only though for the first three sales that we use in our report, but we can really go back further than that. There are times when there’s a great comparable sale and it sold two years ago, but it is so comparable. You know, you can’t ignore it even though it’s sold two years ago. So, that’s where the market adjustment or time adjustment is, sometimes we call it, that’s where it comes into play.

Lisa: Can you explain that concept of the time adjustment because when we spoke earlier, I hadn’t really heard too much about it, but you said that’s something that most appraisers should use as a tool.

Jamie: Yes. And most appraisers that are trained properly do make time adjustments. Here’s the concept, when we’re appraising a property, it’s as of a specific point in time, it’s one day, you know, that our opinion is based on that one day at the effective date of the report. But like in our current market, if I used a sale that was comparable and it sold six months ago, if I didn’t make a market or a time adjustment for that sales price, what you’re gonna get is a historical value. That’s not really the case as of the effective date of the report.

So, the way that we bring that value current of the sales price of the comparable sales is, first of all, we measure the market like we were just talking about. So, I will see what competing homes are selling for and the rate of appreciation or depreciation, whatever the change is. And so, for instance, let’s say that the comparable sale sold for $400,000 six months ago. And let’s say the homes are appreciating at 15% a year that are competing with this home. So, that means that, you know, that’d be $60,000 a year appreciation.

So, you divide that by 12, so you get the appreciation per month. And then you multiply that from the contract date of that sale to the effective date of the appraisal. So, if it was six months ago, that would be a $30,000 adjustment that we would make. If it’s appreciating, it’d be a positive adjustment to that sales price. If we were in ’08 and things were going in the opposite direction, it would be a negative adjustment. So, that’s how we make up the difference in time, and bring those prices current.

Lisa: Jamie, I can’t help but think you’re gonna have some explaining to do as with this current market. You’re gonna have some mad folks on your hands.

Jamie: Yeah. So, this is why some appraisers are afraid to make an adjustment like that though, because banks, they get scared when you make adjustments across the board–and time adjustments are across the board–right? You’re going in one direction. So, the problem is sometimes those time adjustments have been so large over the last couple of years that even banks, I think it makes them worried. I have a bank that I do a lot of work for, direct lender, it’s not AMC. And last year, some of my market or time adjustments were so large, they called me up and they said, “Are you sure that’s right?” Because it is a huge adjustment across the market. I said, “I think so, based on my information, the data that I looked at.” And I gave them the data, they looked at it and they’re like, “Yeah, you’re right.” And they accepted it. So, that’s what appraisers have to do, though. We have to be able to support our work because if I had not made those adjustments, my opinion of value would’ve been lower than the market really was at that time.

But it does require a lot of explaining. I think the banks are used to it now after two years of this rapid appreciation, they’re used to it. But early on, you know, and things are appreciating at 20% a year when it’s normally 5%.

Matt: I wanna go back to one of the other things that you also mentioned, too. You talked about getting in touch with the agent who listed the comps.

Jamie: Yeah.

Matt: So, two questions on that. Number one, is that common among appraisers? Do a lot of appraisers do that? And then two, what are you looking for when you talk to them?

Jamie: I don’t know how common it is. I know appraisers that do and I know there are some that don’t, so it’s hard for me to comment on how common it is. It’s beneficial to me though because I like to know the motivations behind the situation. You know, was it a distressed sale? Was there some kind of large personal property that was included that I don’t know about or some strange thing? So, that’s one of the reasons I like to talk to the agent. And the other is I like to just get a little bit more of a flavor of what the home was really like. You know, MLS photos are great, but, you know, sometimes you can make something look really good. And if you get to the property, its like, “Man, maybe it’s not quite as good as those pictures showed,” and that’s okay, you know, agents are trying to sell homes. So, I get it.

Lisa: I think a lot of agents don’t realize the value that they can add for their listings by giving you so much information and that you’re willing and ready to accept it. So, if you were to, like Matt said, get certain information from the agent, you wanna know the things that aren’t obvious, right? So, if there’s a sale that was sold for less than what you think it should have sold for down the street or next door, and they have some inside information on that that may help their listing, you want that information, right?

Jamie: Definitely. Definitely. The more information you can give us the better, because it helps us to make a better decision about, you know, where we’re going to develop that opinion of value. If you’ve got a low sale, and it was maybe a divorce situation and they were just trying to get rid of that house, that may not show up in the multiple listing service, but an agent might know about it. You know, and so that might keep us from using that comparable sale.

You know, sometimes they’re way high too and there may be a reason why that one sold much higher than the rest. Maybe it had a valley, you know, view, and we couldn’t see it from the street, because, you know, the home was blocked by woods. But when you got to the property, it opened up to this gorgeous valley view,and people are willing to pay a lot of money for that. But sometimes we just don’t know that. You know, we do our best to, but an agent can really help with that. And I’ll tell you, the agents, at least in Northeast Ohio, most of them are awesome about sharing that kind of information. I’m grateful, it’s really been a blessing here.

Matt: Is there information that agents sometimes share with you that just isn’t helpful?

Jamie: Yeah. Sometimes I’ll get to the home and the agent meets me there and they have this amazing packet, you know, and it’s got the MLS printout of the property. But I already have that, like you say. So yeah, that, we don’t really need. But I will happily take sales that the agent thinks are comparable because sometimes we’ll miss it. You know, I may draw a line around the area that I’m searching for comparable sales and for some reason, one sale wasn’t geocoded properly, and I missed it and it’s an awesome sale and the agent knew it was there, but it didn’t show up in my search. So, I always appreciate that kind of information. You know, and if it’s comparable or not, I’ll figure that out, but it’s nice to have it.

Matt: When you are going out to do the inspection, when you’re going out to visit the house, do you also drive around the neighborhood as well?

Jamie: I do. I do. You know, within reason. You know, I’m not gonna drive up and down every street. But I do like to drive around and just get a little flavor. I mean, I’ve been appraising in this area, since ’98, and I know the neighborhoods that I’m in well, but it’s still nice to drive through. You may see some new construction taking place or the development of some commercial property that could either be detrimental or positive to buyers. So, it’s nice to mention those things. So, I do, kind of a cursory drive through the neighborhood. We do that anyway when we’re taking comparable sale photos.

Matt: Are there things in a neighborhood that impact the value of a house? Say, I assume as a parent, school might impact the value of a house. What about like hospitals, airports, things that have positive and negative impact?

Jamie: Sometimes an airport can have a negative impact on a neighborhood, especially if there’s a lot of noise associated, you know, with the airport. There are areas where there might be a nuclear power plant nearby, but you’re gonna see that in all of the sales too because hopefully the sales are in the same area, I’d say neighborhood. So, they’re all gonna be impacted by those kinds of things. So, those can be negative. One of the positives is shopping, you know, restaurants, access to those kinds of areas. Hospitals, I don’t really see a major positive impact on them, you know, but they’re nice to have, but how often do you need to go to the hospital? But they could be a nuisance, you know, if you’re in close proximity to one, your house is and you hear ambulances all throughout the night, that could be a negative.

Lisa: A lot of agents, I think, would wonder, how do you add or subtract from the value or would you even for having those things in your neighborhood?

Jamie: Well, if you’re pulling comparable sales that are in the same neighborhood, they’re all gonna be subject to the same influence. So, it’s kind of a moot point. However, you may have a home that’s really close to something like that, like a fire station or something like that. So, we’ll try to find a sale that’s, hopefully, relatively comparable that is subject to the same kind of influence. And we’ll use that as a basis for some market evidence where we might make an adjustment. You know, so maybe if that comparable sale–you’ve got one that’s subject to a similar kind of influence, negative or positive–and the rest aren’t, you know, after you make all of your other adjustments, what’s left might be, you know, the difference.

Matt: Jamie, I imagine you’ve had this experience where you live. Lisa, I imagine you’ve had this experience where you live. I know I’ve had it here. I’m walking around my neighborhood, there’s, you know, three or four houses down, the yard is in disrepair, the fencing, you know, looks awful, the gate is coming undone. And you walk past and you say, “That house is killing property values in this neighborhood.” Set the record straight for us. Does the condition of my neighbor’s house impact my value?

Jamie: Probably not.

Matt: Probably not.

Jamie: But I can’t say for sure, because, you know, until you analyze it, we really don’t know until we analyze it, but probably not. For one thing, it’s probably not comparable to your home anyway, condition wise. Right? So, we would not even use that as a comparable sale. And it’s funny, I’ve had people in the last couple of years make that argument for like tax appeal work. They’ll say, you know, “My neighbor’s home is a disaster, so my home has to be worth less.” And it’s just usually not the case, you know, because you could also make the other argument.

Okay, if that’s gonna bring the value down, what if someone went in there, an investor, and they totally renovated the property? Now, does that mean that it brought your value up of your property? Maybe, it makes it more appealing, you know, you’re next to, you know, nicer property now, but that’s something that’s hard to really prove most of the time unless that neighbor–if it was so bad that it was somehow a detriment to your home in some way. But yeah, usually, you get a home that needs some help, that’s not gonna really have an impact. You know, one home does not make the market.

(SHORT MUSIC TRANSITION)

Matt: That’s a great line to use right there if you ever have a seller worried that the the neighbor is dragging down their home value. And Jamie said, “One home does not make the market.” Great stuff. Hey, Jamie Owen, thank you so much. This was just part one with Jamie. We still have a ton to talk about with him. We didn’t even scratch the surface of what happens when he gets to the house and starts inspecting things. So, we’ll give you a sneak peek of part two coming up in just a moment.

Make sure you take a look at today’s show notes. We have links to Jamie’s website, a link to his blog where he has lots of articles about appraisals and appraising. We also have a link to his appraisals podcast. And we’re also gonna tell you in just a moment how you can ask Jamie some questions directly. So, stay tuned for that.

Right now, let’s do our takeaways segment from episode 97, part one of our interview with veteran appraiser, Jamie Owen. I’ll take the first two takeaways, and then Lisa, you can take the rest.

Takeaway number one is this quote: Jamie said, “Market value is not just what two people are willing to buy and sell a house for. It’s a lot more complicated than that.” Hopefully, we started to unpack and explain some of those complications today. And of course, we’re gonna do a lot more of that coming up in part two next week.

Takeaway number two: Jamie gave us about a five-minute walkthrough of his appraisal process. Step one, he gets the assignment, of course. He starts looking at the data and trends, what’s happening in the market for homes like the one he’s appraising? How fast are homes appreciating? Step two, this is when he visits the home to gather data. He’s gonna measure, take photos, walk around, make observations and notes on what he sees. Jamie called this the easy part of the appraisal. And then step three, this is the hard part. This is all about taking that data, taking those observations from the home, and reconciling the property with the market as a whole. This is where he’s finding comps and making adjustments that he derives from the market.

Lisa: Take away number three: Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac like to see comps that sold within the past six months, but they will go back as far as a year for the first three homes in the appraisal report. Now, Jamie said he may also go back a couple years if there’s a really great comp and then do a time adjustment.

Takeaway number four: Jamie loves talking to agents. He will call the listing agent for some comps to learn more about the sale. You know, stuff that’s not obvious from the MLS record, like the circumstances surrounding a sale. Maybe there was a divorce, maybe they had to sell the home quickly. And so, he invites agents to volunteer info for the appraisal, but you don’t need to give the appraiser anything that’s already available in the MLS.

Take away number five: We talked about the impact a neighborhood can have on home values. Jamie said shopping and restaurants are generally seen as a positive, while things like hospitals and fire stations may or may not be, it just depends. And those are your takeaways for this week.

Matt: Yeah. We talked about the neighborhood factors today. Coming up next week in part two, we’re gonna talk about the home itself. What does an appraiser put the most weight on inside the home when it comes to determining value and making adjustments? Jamie says this is where things can get a bit tricky because some of that analysis is more subjective than objective.

Jamie: You might have one appraiser that for whatever reason, you know, they look at that as a remodeled kitchen, you know, because the doors were, painted, they got new pulls on there, new countertops. So, they may say it’s renovated, another appraiser may say, “Oh, that’s not really renovated, that’s more updated.” So, there is some subjectivity to those things.

Matt: So, that’s a sneak peak at part two next week with Jamie Owen. Don’t miss it. I think you’re gonna love it. If you have any questions or feedback about what you heard today in part one, there’s a couple different ways that you can get in touch with me. Leave a voicemail or send a text, the number to use is 415-322-3328. You can send an email, the address is walkthrough[at]homelight.com.

But really, if you wanna get in touch, if you have any questions for me or for Jamie, just join our Facebook mastermind group. I’m in there, Lisa is in there, and best of all, Jamie Owen is in there too and he is ready to answer any questions you have about appraisals. So, if you’re not a member already, go to Facebook, do a search for HomeLight Walkthrough™ and the group should come right up.

All right, that’s all for this week. Thanks so much to Jamie Owen for joining me, and Lisa, thanks to Lisa for co-hosting today. And thank you for listening. Hey, if you get a minute, can you do us a favor? Please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. We would really, really appreciate that. And also, while you’re there, hit that follow button so that you get all of our future shows automatically.

All right. My name is Matt McGee. You’ve been listening to The Walkthrough™.”At HomeLight, we believe in real estate agents. We’re here to explore how great agents grow their business, stand out from the crowd, and become irreplaceable. Go out and sell some homes. I’ll talk to you again next week. Bye-bye.

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